and new details about his efforts# to overturn the last election.
To discuss it all, we turn now to the analysis# of Brooks and Capehart.
That is Ne columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart,# associate editor for The Washington Post.
Good to see you both.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Y again.
The Senate went home without a deal of# border policy wrapped up with foreign aid funding.
In the meantime, immigration as an# issue, as a concern for Americans,## has been rising.
In some recent polling by Gallup,# you see, when people are asked what they think the## most important problem the country is facing# right now, the top one is government and poor## leadership at 19 percent.
Immigration a second at# 15 percent, followed by the economy and inflation.
Jonathan, the negotiators from# the Senate who went home still## have a chance to continue talking.
Do# you see them getting any JONATHAN CAPEHART: In the spirit# of Christmas, I want to say yes,## but by the time they get something# done, Christmas will have come and gone.
And so, look, this much, I know.
They are# trying.
They are trying very hard.
Th I also know.
If they do indeed come up with# a deal, it's going to be a deal that folks## in the far right are going to hate, because it# doesn't go far enough from their perspective,## and those on the left and# within the Democratic Party,## their hair is going to be on fire,# because it probably will go too far.
But because it is attached to aid# to Ukraine and Israel and Taiwan,## the imperative to getting this done is# so high that I think the negotiators## are going to come up with a bill that is# going to require a lot of people on both## sides of the aisle to swallow a bitter# pill if they want to get this done.
AMNA NAWAZ: You agree with that?
DAVID BROO immigration bill than we have been# since the Bush administr Just a lot of people have a lot they need# from this bill.
The Biden admi is now just way behind on immigration.
Biden# was slightly behind immigration he 's like 30 points behind.
Among immigrants# themselves, people who personally came over## to this country, Biden had a 20-point lead.# Among immigrants now, now it's even with Trump.
And so the political pressure is just awesome.# And then you look at Chuck Schumer and Mitch## McConnell, Kyrsten Sinema.
Everyone is# sort of saying the right things.
And,## of course, the details are the details,# the immigration issue being what it is.
But I just think so many different constituencies# get something out of this I don't know more likely than not,# but more than we have seen in decades.
AMNA NAWAZ: The cynical view here is, the# longer it's a prob can leverage it and say it's Biden's problem and# not want to fix it DAVID BROOKS: Yes.
Well, obviously,# there's some truth to having an issue.
But I think, for Kyrsten Sinema, people lik or the individual House members, and you look# at how people are reacting on the border where## they go to the grocery store and there's# no food because they have been swamped,## they can't get in the yard, like, people# are having real in these towns that are overwhelmed, to me,# those people are not looking for an issue.
Those are looking for some help.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: And I agree with you on that.
But let's talk about an even mo from their states to Northern cities, to# cities that are run by Democratic mayors,## and thus using immigrants and using# human beings for political purposes,## using them as pawns in their political games.
And I think that's also why we see concern# about immigration rising up to the top,## including in places like New York City,# which Republicans like to deride it as,## well, you're a sanctuary city,# well, you should take care of this.
But in order for those things to work, things# need to work at the border.
And so problem that is not one of President Biden's# making.
To your point, this is something -- we## haven't been this close to an immigration deal# since President George W. Bush, the Republican,## but this is something that has bedeviled# both Republican and Democratic presidents,## simply because the incentives have not# really been there to do anything about it.
AMNA NAWAZ: And we cannot# say enough nothing changes## substantially at the border until Co JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right.
AMNA NAWAZ: We have to undersco Meanwhile, all of these on a lot of the anti-immigrant messaging.
He# has been employing, he's been echoin propaganda by repeatedly saying immigrants are# -- quote -- "poisoning the blood of our country."
We have got just over three weeks to go# before the Iowa caucuses.
And I need to## point out that that language is actually# resonating among l Take a look at this latest poll from The Des# Moines Register and NBC in Iowa.
They found## 42 percent say those comments actually make them# more likely to vote for former President Trump.
Jonathan, what do you make of that?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: I'm not It takes me back to the 2016 campaign,## when there were a lot of stories that# quoted people who went to hi Why do you like Donald Trump?
He says what# we're all thinking.
He says what I can't say.
And left me to wonder, well, what can't you say?# He's called Mexicans rapists.
He's called for a## Muslim ban.
This was during his campaign.
He's# been -- he was president for four years.
So we## know what his thinking is.
And in these# rallies where he talks about immigrants,## he's talking about poisoning the blood# of our country, and he spells out they're## coming from Africa, they're coming from# Asia, they're coming from South America.
What he doesn't say is, they're# coming from Europe.
For him,## immigrants are people who come from# anywhere that's basically Black or## brown.
And let's not forget what he said# when he was president of the United States,## how he derided immigrants from country from# -- quote, unquote -- "S-hole countries."
So we know what his viewpoint is.
And so# the fact that he is using this -- the -- I## was about to say this Hitleresque# language, we should take that very## seriously.
He's saying it over and over and# over again.
And it is terrible for political## discourse.
It is terrible for a country that# is built by immigrants and enslaved labor.
AMNA NAWAZ: David.
Donald Trump has a talent for tapping into# some of the darker undergrou American history, America first, nativism,# Know Nothing-ism.
And this is an example.
But we shouldn't ignore the fact -- the# statistic I said a couple of minutes ago,## which is that his support among immigrants# themselves is surging.
And so ac tual issue here.
And so, in my view,# anytime he talks about immigrants,## he's probably going to get -- you're# going to get that 42 percent number.
And then you got to remember 42 percent, at least,## of Iowan Republican Caucus-goers are Trump# supporte no matter what, when a reporter comes# up.
So, A, I think it's abhorrent.
But## we shouldn't reduce the whole issue to those# abhorrent comments, those Nazi-like comments,## that there actually is a core problem here# that people are really resonating with.
AMNA NAWAZ: I do want to get you both to# weigh in on the issue out of Colorado a the Supreme Court there weighing in and# basically saying Mr. Trump is to appear on their primary ballot, citing the# Insurrection Clause of the 14th Amendment.
We know there's similar legal# efforts under way in a number## of states.
So this is likely# headed for the Supreme Court.
But, Jonathan, is this an issue that you think# the courts JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes.
(L JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes.
In the s ort term one, the guy is at least right now leading in the# polls.
He is on his way, quite possibly, to become## the next Republican nominee.
And we're less than a# year out.
So the voters should have a say in this.
At the same time, I say, yes, that the courts# should have a say, because this is a question## that has not been tested yet.
And I don't# think, even though the framers foresaw a## Trump-like character coming -- coming -- at least# trying to come into power in American politics,## that person has never tested the# system the way Donald Trump has.
The system has never been required to answer the# question until now.
And so I think, jus good of the country, let's have this conversation.# These two things can happen at the same time.
AMNA NAWAZ: You agree with that, David?
DAVID BR DAVID BROOKS: No.
AMNA NAWAZ DAVID BROOKS: Ye across every Western country?
It's because# a lot of people in a lot me included, think a highly educated# cohort of, in this case Americans,## have created a hereditary meritocratic# class.
They have too -- they have a lot## of education.
They now have a lot# of cultural power.
They control the## media.
They control the universities.# They increasingly And a lot of Americans say they have too# much power.
We're going to be We're going to have an uprising.
And# then you have a series of ju their Ivy League law degrees who come# in and say, sorry, we're taking your## guy off the ballot?
That would explode this# country and, in my v the most dubious possible circumstances,# for kicking off for the Insurrection Act.
Has he been convicted of the -- of# offending the Insurrection Act?
Has## he been even charged with violating# the Insurrection Act?
No.
And so,## to me, it would look like and I think would be# just an elite power grab to deny people their## democratic rights.
I assume the Supreme Court# will throw this out anyway.
But that's my view.
AMNA NAWAZ: And we should point out# there's divergence among opinions,## even for those who don't believe# that he should n he's unfit to be president.
So I'm sure it's# something we're goin You have a quick point to make?
Yes, please.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes.
Yes, AM NA NAWAZ: Worth noting.
Thank you for that.
Look, we are heading of the toughest issues of our time,# which we so appreciate, every week,## but it is the season of peace, goodwill# towards men and women, also the season of I need to ask you both, what is it# that gives you hope in this moment?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Oh, I was going# to go to David first.
But I... (LAUGHTER) JONATHAN CAPEHART: No.
that there's some folks who don't# -- who might not agree with that,## but the American electorate in 2022, during# the midterm they are nuanced and sophisticated and# can walk and chew gum at the same time.
They might not like the economy, but# they don't like what Republicans had## in store for the country and they blunted# the red wave.
It is the American electorate one year from# now will have saved American democracy,## will have saved the idea of democracy for# the rest of the world.
That is my hope.
AMNA NAWAZ: David.
You know the# dancing Santa in t the -- how can you not be hopeful So I'm just filled with ecstatic exuberance.
(LAUGHTER) AMNA NAWAZ: I did not think this was going to end with you imitating a David Brooks, Jonathan# Capehart, thank you so much.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Amna.
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